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I think a lot of people start out as a holier-than-thou vegetarian and, as one progresses and grows with vegetarianism and (hopefully, usually?) into veganism, they start taking the attitude of "eh. I'm veg*n, don't eat that or that, but you can eat whatever your murderous heart desires."
Also, at least from personal experience, I was very slow on avoiding the more insidious ingredients- gelatin (hated Jell-O, but marshmallows? oh, man), fish sauce (didn't know it existed until a year ago...yes), things like that. I dunno how long your friend has been vegetarian, and her attitude comes off as a 'who gives a shiitake about these minimal amounts of things?' but maybe the longer she sticks with it and the more she learns and realizes, the better she'll become at avoiding animal products.
You have a right to be judgy and annoyed, though. 
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I was a pretty sloppy vegetarian, just because I didn't really have any guidance from older vegetarians, and I didn't do a lot of research. I was in high school and a bit naive and simply didn't know about all of the hidden ingredients in things. I thought I could look at something and just tell what was in it, because all I was avoiding was meat. I knew somethings, like geletin, but I certainly had never heard of rennet when I was just starting. Then when I became vegan and started reading labels, I became more aware of all of the crazy ingredients in things and suddenly realized that I had no idea what these things were. So I finally did my research then, and realized all of the stuff that was in things.
That said, the whole "I'm a vegetarian - I eat [insert kind of animal flesh here] sometimes" thing does kind of boggle my mind. Even the things I ate out of ignorance, once I was educated, I never would have thought "oh, it's just a little gelatin/beef fat/fish sauce." My fiance and I were having a conversation on the phone and he mentioned he was going to his friend's house for dinner. He said "and I'll be having a vegetarian meal because that's what he is." I said something like "cool!" or "yay!" Then my fiance went on to say "Yeah, he's the kind of vegetarian that makes sense to me, where if something is caught in the wild he'll eat that, because he's really against factory farming." Flabbergasted, I said "so he eats meat?" My fiance said "Only if it's [blahdittyblah whatever justification people like to use." I replied with something like "well that's nice that he is against factory farming, but if he eats meat he's not a vegetarian. Just saying." My fiance gave me a kind of "well, okay, whatever" response, but it was a super headslappy moment for me! Like, it's great if you try to be conscious of things, and if you hardly ever eat meat, but if you DO eat meat then you aren't a vegetarian! You're something else! It just seems to say to me that they do know that vegetarianism is good and right and they identify with it, but for whatever reason they can't give up meat. Call yourself an aspiring vegetarian if you must mention vegetarianism but don't kid yourself, please! And especially try not to lead the general public to believe that everyone who calls themselves veg*n is a big ol' hypocrite.
Last edited by loveonamixtape (Mon 12/7/09 1:17 pm)
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As someone who was a lazy vegetarian for a long time, I think I understand what the problem is- it's easier to be lax on food when the definition of ethical food is created by the person who has become vegetarian. It's a slippery slope...As a vegetarian, I never ate meat, but I did eat dairy, eggs, gelatin, and other foods that contained animal byproducts. It was easier to descend into denial when I was already eating these things- what's a little fish sauce going to hurt? Or shellfish? Pretty soon I was eating fish.
Veganism, on the other hand, has a clear cut definition: No animal products of any kind. Ever. To me, it's easier to maintain this type of consciousness. It stays in the forefront of my mind and forces me to make conscious decisions every day about my ethics. There's no sliding scale - it's black and white.
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In my pregan days, I was paid to make the desserts for the office Christmas party. There were 2 vegetarians in the office ~ 1 was for animal rights reasons, the other just did not like the taste of meat. So right before it was time to eat, I let both know that 2 of the deserts had gelatin in them.
They both replied, "Oh, that's OK, we're not THAT extreme about being vegetarian." The one animal rights vegetarian would not sit next to anyone eating meat because it bugged her so much and she only ate non-rennet cheese. But gelatin was no big deal?
I don't understand people.
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Charlie Storm wrote:
I think a lot of people start out as a holier-than-thou vegetarian and, as one progresses and grows with vegetarianism and (hopefully, usually?) into veganism, they start taking the attitude of "eh. I'm veg*n, don't eat that or that, but you can eat whatever your murderous heart desires."
Also, at least from personal experience, I was very slow on avoiding the more insidious ingredients- gelatin (hated Jell-O, but marshmallows? oh, man), fish sauce (didn't know it existed until a year ago...yes), things like that. I dunno how long your friend has been vegetarian, and her attitude comes off as a 'who gives a shiitake about these minimal amounts of things?' but maybe the longer she sticks with it and the more she learns and realizes, the better she'll become at avoiding animal products.
You have a right to be judgy and annoyed, though.
No, no one has a right to be "judgy" about other peoples food choices. You can educate her, you can set a positive example for her, but making her feel like a piece of shiitake or calling her out in public when she is ordering food is not going to help her if she decides she wants to transition into veganism later on.
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I don't judge anyone's food choices really, but I would have a hard time tolerating sanctimoniousness from someone who was a self described vegetarian who just shrugged and ate fish sauce whenever they felt like it. Luckily I haven't met too many people like that. My co-worker is vegetarian and generally pretty cool about it but does eat marshmallows sometimes and basically let me know that up front. I am thinking of getting her some sweet&sara vegan marshmallows for Christmas.
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katieud wrote:
Charlie Storm wrote:
I think a lot of people start out as a holier-than-thou vegetarian and, as one progresses and grows with vegetarianism and (hopefully, usually?) into veganism, they start taking the attitude of "eh. I'm veg*n, don't eat that or that, but you can eat whatever your murderous heart desires."
Also, at least from personal experience, I was very slow on avoiding the more insidious ingredients- gelatin (hated Jell-O, but marshmallows? oh, man), fish sauce (didn't know it existed until a year ago...yes), things like that. I dunno how long your friend has been vegetarian, and her attitude comes off as a 'who gives a shiitake about these minimal amounts of things?' but maybe the longer she sticks with it and the more she learns and realizes, the better she'll become at avoiding animal products.
You have a right to be judgy and annoyed, though.No, no one has a right to be "judgy" about other peoples food choices. You can educate her, you can set a positive example for her, but making her feel like a piece of shiitake or calling her out in public when she is ordering food is not going to help her if she decides she wants to transition into veganism later on.
Well put, KatieUD! I think you have a right to be annoyed and you're not overreacting by being so - because everyone has a right to their own feelings. But how you decide to approach her about it, should you choose to, is a different matter. There's a difference between being judgmental, and being irritated by something that you disagree with.
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BrokenJar wrote:
I don't know whether I've ever met a vegetarian who avoids cheese containing animal rennet.
I did, so going vegan was easier...I did not miss cheese.
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missmuffcake wrote:
BrokenJar wrote:
I don't know whether I've ever met a vegetarian who avoids cheese containing animal rennet.
I did, so going vegan was easier...I did not miss cheese.
Ditto. The more I knew about slaughter byproducts over the years, the more stuff I was avoiding (I went vegetarian before the internet... it was a lot harder to know what to avoid back then so I learned about rennet somewhat belatedly.) It got to be that I could really only eat cheese at home or from the rare place that knew about their cheese. I think it's actually easier to be vegan in some ways than explain to people why you'll eat Tillamook cheese at home but aren't comfortable eating cheese at a restaurant. Plus I was eating way less cheese at the end than I had in the early, ignorant years; that probably made the transition easier.
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katieud wrote:
Charlie Storm wrote:
I think a lot of people start out as a holier-than-thou vegetarian and, as one progresses and grows with vegetarianism and (hopefully, usually?) into veganism, they start taking the attitude of "eh. I'm veg*n, don't eat that or that, but you can eat whatever your murderous heart desires."
Also, at least from personal experience, I was very slow on avoiding the more insidious ingredients- gelatin (hated Jell-O, but marshmallows? oh, man), fish sauce (didn't know it existed until a year ago...yes), things like that. I dunno how long your friend has been vegetarian, and her attitude comes off as a 'who gives a shiitake about these minimal amounts of things?' but maybe the longer she sticks with it and the more she learns and realizes, the better she'll become at avoiding animal products.
You have a right to be judgy and annoyed, though.No, no one has a right to be "judgy" about other peoples food choices. You can educate her, you can set a positive example for her, but making her feel like a piece of shiitake or calling her out in public when she is ordering food is not going to help her if she decides she wants to transition into veganism later on.
Well, we all judge other people's choices all the time. I don't know if Charlie Storm meant it was OK to judge to yourself and feel a certain way about it, or OK to be preachy and judgemental toward the person in question... but I draw a distinction between the two.
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katieud wrote:
Charlie Storm wrote:
I think a lot of people start out as a holier-than-thou vegetarian and, as one progresses and grows with vegetarianism and (hopefully, usually?) into veganism, they start taking the attitude of "eh. I'm veg*n, don't eat that or that, but you can eat whatever your murderous heart desires."
Also, at least from personal experience, I was very slow on avoiding the more insidious ingredients- gelatin (hated Jell-O, but marshmallows? oh, man), fish sauce (didn't know it existed until a year ago...yes), things like that. I dunno how long your friend has been vegetarian, and her attitude comes off as a 'who gives a shiitake about these minimal amounts of things?' but maybe the longer she sticks with it and the more she learns and realizes, the better she'll become at avoiding animal products.
You have a right to be judgy and annoyed, though.No, no one has a right to be "judgy" about other peoples food choices. You can educate her, you can set a positive example for her, but making her feel like a piece of shiitake or calling her out in public when she is ordering food is not going to help her if she decides she wants to transition into veganism later on.
I didn't mean judgy to her face. Judgy in her head. As in how everyone else is responding. Head slap, 'that's ridiculous,' 'it boggles my mind.'
Not "You're an idiot" judgy. Er, I should've just said 'what monkeytoes put,' because that's what I meant. Everyone has the right to an opinion- which is a judgement. As long as it's not vocalized in a hurtful/rude way.
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Anger is nothing but our own frustration at our inability to control others. And you can't control what other people eat. Except for young children who are with you 24/7 and whose food intake you yourself control 24/7.
So, I'd let it go. I don't think food choices are worth ruining friendships over.
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paperweight wrote:
Unless I'm somewhere where I know people are familiar with veganism, I always say "I don't eat [list of animal products]" Because they might be under the impression that turkey sandwiches are vegan.
I think this is usually the best approach. The last time I asked whether something was vegan at a restaurant that didn't cater to vegans, the employee thought I was asking how big it was. Then there are people like my grandmother who ask whether there are restrictions on the vegetables I can eat. It can be easier to dispense with labels and just say what I won't eat.
monkeytoes wrote:
I think it's actually easier to be vegan in some ways than explain to people why you'll eat Tillamook cheese at home but aren't comfortable eating cheese at a restaurant.
I agree with this very much. Ease of explanation was one thing that pushed me to veganism. I employ excellent decision-making processes.
Last edited by BrokenJar (Tue 12/8/09 1:09 am)
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BrokenJar wrote:
I don't know whether I've ever met a vegetarian who avoids cheese containing animal rennet.
I did when I was a vegetarian, or rather, once I found out about rennet. But that was in the UK, and there, it was almost always labeled one way or the other. Here it's just listed as "enzymes" or some such thing. That was one of the several reasons I ended up cutting out dairy entirely...
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Hoveringdog wrote:
BrokenJar wrote:
I don't know whether I've ever met a vegetarian who avoids cheese containing animal rennet.
I did when I was a vegetarian, or rather, once I found out about rennet. But that was in the UK, and there, it was almost always labeled one way or the other. Here it's just listed as "enzymes" or some such thing. That was one of the several reasons I ended up cutting out dairy entirely...
Yeah, I did too. It does seem that we're the exception though.
Last edited by vegimator (Tue 12/8/09 1:27 am)
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I met a woman years ago at a dinner party who enthusiastically said she was vegan upon hearing I was. Because I don't encounter many other vegans in my travels, I was excited to chat with her.
Next sentence out of her mouth was, "I eat fish and shellfish." ?!? She actually brought a fishy-dish to said dinner party.
I agree that there should be some sort of standards based on the definition, because omnis will not really know what it means to be vegan. I know someone who doesn't eat meat or dairy but will eat eggs and wear leather/wool. She doesn't call herself vegan but will say she has an almost vegan diet but eats eggs. Clarity like that is helpful as people don't view her as a vegan.
I tire of going to an omni restaurant and when asking for a (vegan) veggie burger, the server will say, "No, but we have turkey burgers."
Last time I checked, turkeys don't grow in gardens.
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Belle Equine wrote:
Last time I checked, turkeys don't grow in gardens.
You might want to check again. I'm pretty sure they do now. (Can anyone back me up on this?)
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Please refer to: http://www.postpunkkitchen.com/forum/vi … p?id=97961
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katieud wrote:
"Vegetarian" for the majority of the world means avoidance of meat. At least that's my understanding of it, as I am a vegetarian (don't ask, going back to veganism..) and avoid meat. I know plenty of vegetarians who still eat marshmallows and rennet, etc.
I think it's great she is avoiding (most) meat. Maybe you can educate her about avoiding certain products by telling her where they come from- ie where gelatin in marshmallows comes from. If she is a self proclaimed animal rights activist, maybe she'll listen. Even if she doesn't ever give up animal products completely, she is still doing a hell more for animals than omnivores are.
I think it's great that she avoids most meat, too, but she KNOWS that the marshmallows she eats have gelatin in them, and where it comes from. What really bugged me about the situation was that she specifically asked the waiter about the fish sauce, he specifically told her that it was in the dish, and she ordered it anyway. It's not like she was just careless, which would have been understandable (imo). It also wouldn't be as big of a deal to me if she didn't talk about vegetarianism and animal rights almost constantly. I'm glad she generally has good intentions, but she struck me as really hypocritical in this particular situation.
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Argh! Just one more person out there making blurring the word vegetarian so that we get asked stupid questions like "do you eat fish", "what about chicken". Great.
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sounds like she wants the label without making the necessary sacrifces. one of my coworkers is like that...ndohfieolklfk! vegetarianism is not a fad people, it's a lifestyle that i think most of believe demands 100% commitment if you truly care about the animals
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